发信人: smalltalk (Tim), 信区: USANews 标 题: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:08:38 2008) China Inspired Interrogations at Guantánamo By SCOTT SHANE Published: July 2, 2008 WASHINGTON — The military trainers who came to Guantánamo Bay in December 2002 based an entire interrogation class on a chart showing the effects of “coercive management techniques” for possible use on prisoners, including “sleep deprivation,” “prolonged constraint,” and “exposure.” What the trainers did not say, and may not have known, was that their chart had been copied verbatim from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false, from American prisoners. The recycled chart is the latest and most vivid evidence of the way Communist interrogation methods that the United States long described as torture became the basis for interrogations both by the military at the base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, and by the Central Intelligence Agency. Some methods were used against a small number of prisoners at Guantánamo before 2005, when Congress banned the use of coercion by the military. The C .I.A. is still authorized by President Bush to use a number of secret “ alternative” interrogation methods. Several Guantánamo documents, including the chart outlining coercive methods, were made public at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing June 17 that examined how such tactics came to be employed. But committee investigators were not aware of the chart’s source in the half-century-old journal article, a connection pointed out to The New York Times by an independent expert on interrogation who spoke on condition of anonymity. The 1957 article from which the chart was copied was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War” and written by Albert D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, who died in 2003. Mr. Biderman had interviewed American prisoners returning from North Korea, some of whom had been filmed by their Chinese interrogators confessing to germ warfare and other atrocities. Those orchestrated confessions led to allegations that the American prisoners had been “brainwashed,” and provoked the military to revamp its training to give some military personnel a taste of the enemies’ harsh methods to inoculate them against quick capitulation if captured. In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C. I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners. Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan and chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said after reviewing the 1957 article that “every American would be shocked” by the origin of the training document. “What makes this document doubly stunning is that these were techniques to get false confessions,” Mr. Levin said. “People say we need intelligence, and we do. But we don’t need false intelligence.” A Defense Department spokesman, Lt. Col Patrick Ryder, said he could not comment on the Guantánamo training chart. “I can’t speculate on previous decisions that may have been made prior to current D.O.D. policy on interrogations,” Colonel Ryder said. “I can tell you that current D.O.D. policy is clear — we treat all detainees humanely.” Mr. Biderman’s 1957 article described “one form of torture” used by the Chinese as forcing American prisoners to stand “for exceedingly long periods,” sometimes in conditions of “extreme cold.” Such passive methods , he wrote, were more common than outright physical violence. Prolonged standing and exposure to cold have both been used by American military and C .I.A. interrogators against terrorist suspects. The chart also listed other techniques used by the Chinese, including “Semi -Starvation,” “Exploitation of Wounds,” and “Filthy, Infested Surroundings,” and with their effects: “Makes Victim Dependent on Interrogator,” “Weakens Mental and Physical Ability to Resist,” and “ Reduces Prisoner to ‘Animal Level’ Concerns.” The only change made in the chart presented at Guantánamo was to drop its original title: “Communist Coercive Methods for Eliciting Individual Compliance.” The documents released last month include an e-mail message from two SERE trainers reporting on a trip to Guantánamo from Dec. 29, 2002, to Jan. 4, 2003. Their purpose, the message said, was to present to interrogators “the theory and application of the physical pressures utilized during our training.” The sessions included “an in-depth class on Biderman’s Principles,” the message said, referring to the chart from Mr. Biderman’s 1957 article. Versions of the same chart, often identified as “Biderman’s Chart of Coercion,” have circulated on anti-cult sites on the Web, where the methods are used to describe how cults control their members. Dr. Robert Jay Lifton, a psychiatrist who also studied the returning prisoners of war and wrote an accompanying article in the same 1957 issue of The Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine, said in an interview that he was disturbed to learn that the Chinese methods had been recycled and taught at Guantánamo. “It saddens me,” said Dr. Lifton, who wrote a 1961 book on what the Chinese called “thought reform” and became known in popular American parlance as brainwashing. He called the use of the Chinese techniques by American interrogators at Guantánamo a “180-degree turn.” The harshest known interrogation at Guantánamo was that of Mohammed al- Qahtani, a member of Al Qaeda suspected of being the intended 20th hijacker in the Sept. 11 attacks. Mr. Qahtani’s interrogation involved sleep deprivation, stress positions, exposure to cold and other methods also used by the Chinese. Terror charges against Mr. Qahtani were dropped unexpectedly in May. Officials said the charges could be reinstated later and declined to say whether the decision was influenced by concern about Mr. Qahtani’s treatment. Mr. Bush has defended the use the interrogation methods, saying they helped provide critical intelligence and prevented new terrorist attacks. But the issue continues to complicate the long-delayed prosecutions now proceeding at Guantánamo. Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, a Qaeda member accused of playing a major role in the bombing of the American destroyer Cole in Yemen in 2000, was charged with murder and other crimes on Monday. In previous hearings, Mr. Nashiri, who was subjected to waterboarding, has said he confessed to participating in the bombing falsely only because he was tortured. -- ※ 修改:·smalltalk 於 Jul 2 14:09:11 2008 修改本文·[FROM: 72.14.]
发信人: yumiao (妙玉), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:30:47 2008) 是满无耻的，不过人家为什么不拉扯日本人，韩国人，越南人呢，或者萨达母，本拉登 什么的，说从中国共产技术里学的，就有人信？看来中国的共产技术，比萨达母和本拉 登啥的，也好不到哪里去。 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 208.7.]
发信人: smalltalk (Tim), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:51:06 2008) 楼上的，共产既不是科学，也不是技术 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 72.14.]
发信人: chiguazi (吐啊吐啊的就习惯了), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:51:25 2008) 嗯。有人打你一耳光， 你说，“为什么人家不打张三李四呢，一定是因为我自己长得 丑“。 【 在 yumiao (妙玉) 的大作中提到: 】 : 是满无耻的，不过人家为什么不拉扯日本人，韩国人，越南人呢，或者萨达母，本拉登 : 什么的，说从中国共产技术里学的，就有人信？看来中国的共产技术，比萨达母和本拉 : 登啥的，也好不到哪里去。 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 192.18.]
发信人: yumiao (妙玉), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:54:16 2008) 人家口口声声Chinese Communist techniques,看来是臭名昭著了,造谣也得找个能造象 的吧 【 在 smalltalk (Tim) 的大作中提到: 】 : 楼上的，共产既不是科学，也不是技术 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 208.7.]
发信人: yumiao (妙玉), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 14:54:58 2008) 打Chinese Communist techniques 的耳光，又不是打我耳光，别乱攀亲戚 【 在 chiguazi (吐啊吐啊的就习惯了) 的大作中提到: 】 : 嗯。有人打你一耳光， 你说，“为什么人家不打张三李四呢，一定是因为我自己长得 : 丑“。 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 208.7.]
发信人: yourtt (rainmaker), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 15:03:46 2008) 因为看轮子表演看太多了? 【 在 yumiao (妙玉) 的大作中提到: 】 : 是满无耻的，不过人家为什么不拉扯日本人，韩国人，越南人呢，或者萨达母，本拉登 : 什么的，说从中国共产技术里学的，就有人信？看来中国的共产技术，比萨达母和本拉 : 登啥的，也好不到哪里去。 -- Obama is a cheap car salesman, selling his empty suit policy just like a cheap car. ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 67.108.]
发信人: smalltalk (Tim), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Jul 2 15:53:30 2008) 其他不说 我就不信美国人虐囚还得师从５０年前的中国 以前听说过美国有专门的心理专家研究有效的逼供手段，我们那点土办法他们怎么看得 起 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 72.14.]
发信人: lanfrui (lanfrui), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 00:13:07 2008) 虐囚本身是不对的 如果楼主说美国人无耻,那么ccp也无耻 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 127.0.]
发信人: smalltalk (Tim), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 01:22:14 2008) 美国人说ccp虐囚你就信了 还有，里面举的一条“在寒冷的地方罚站”算什么残酷手段？ -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 70.227.]
发信人: RxRx (Rx), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 02:02:46 2008) 数据说话： Raymond B. Lech, Broken Soldiers, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago IL, 2000; cloth, 330 pp. This book addresses a depressing subject -- the fate of US POWs during the Korean War (Jun 1950-1953). Of the 7,190 who were captured (mostly in the first nine months of the war), approximately 3000 died in captivity, a mortality of 43%, largely of starvation over a six month period (Nov 1950- April 1951 ). This compares with WW II rates: 4% of US prisoners in Germany (considered a normal rate, reflecting the Geneva convention), 34% in Japan (rightly condemned as barbarous), 45% of German POWs held by the Soviets, and 60% of Soviet POWs held by the Germans. Of 766 US POWs officially held by North Vietnam (1965- 1973), 106 deaths were reported (14%) (Lech, pp. 1-2) 【 在 smalltalk (Tim) 的大作中提到: 】 : 美国人说ccp虐囚你就信了 : 还有，里面举的一条“在寒冷的地方罚站”算什么残酷手段？ -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 76.88.]
发信人: leftHand (Hold on...), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 02:16:22 2008), 转信 既然说数据，就还要拿同期志愿军和越共的死亡率做control group 否则单纯的43%和14%还是说明不了什么 【 在 RxRx (Rx) 的大作中提到: 】 : 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 : 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 02:02:46 2008) : : : 数据说话： : : Raymond B. Lech, Broken Soldiers, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and : Chicago IL, 2000; cloth, 330 pp. : : This book addresses a depressing subject -- the fate of US POWs during the : Korean War (Jun 1950-1953). : : Of the 7,190 who were captured (mostly in the first nine months of the war ), : approximately 3000 died in captivity, a mortality of 43%, largely of : starvation over a six month period (Nov 1950- April 1951 ). This compares : with WW II rates: 4% of US prisoners in Germany (considered a normal rate, : reflecting the Geneva convention), 34% in Japan (rightly condemned as : barbarous), 45% of German POWs held by the Soviets, and 60% of Soviet POWs : held by the Germans. Of 766 US POWs officially held by North Vietnam (1965- : 1973), 106 deaths were reported (14%) (Lech, pp. 1-2) : : : : 【 在 smalltalk (Tim) 的大作中提到: 】 : : 美国人说ccp虐囚你就信了 : : 还有，里面举的一条“在寒冷的地方罚站”算什么残酷手段？ : : : : -- : : ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 76.88.] -- ※ 来源:·BBS 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 24.148.]
发信人: wildThing (东风起兮轰他娘, 安得巨浪兮吞扶桑), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 03:19:40 2008), 转信 died of starvation. 解放军自己都没有吃的. 评什么喂战俘. 这和虐待俘虏有什么联系? 【 在 RxRx (Rx) 的大作中提到: 】 : 数据说话： : Raymond B. Lech, Broken Soldiers, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and : Chicago IL, 2000; cloth, 330 pp. : This book addresses a depressing subject -- the fate of US POWs during the : Korean War (Jun 1950-1953). : Of the 7,190 who were captured (mostly in the first nine months of the war ), : approximately 3000 died in captivity, a mortality of 43%, largely of : starvation over a six month period (Nov 1950- April 1951 ). This compares : with WW II rates: 4% of US prisoners in Germany (considered a normal rate, : reflecting the Geneva convention), 34% in Japan (rightly condemned as : ................... -- our blog: http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com, mirror: http://thenewvoice.yo2.cn/ join google group: mitblog to contribute articles and ideas ※ 来源:·BBS 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 129.89.]
发信人: mingo (mingo), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 04:13:10 2008) 为什么NYT敢这么明目张胆的造谣啊。。难道要有什么暴动之后才会收敛？ -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 129.25.]
发信人: miaomiao2003 (miaomiao2003), 信区: USANews 标 题: Re: 无耻的美国人，自己虐囚还要扯上中国 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Thu Jul 3 11:06:48 2008) 美国还好意思说，渣滓洞那些道具都是他们发明的。美国人的无耻就在于，永远都是他 有理。就好比最近布什说油价上涨是因为民主党限制他们共和党开采新的油矿。 -- ※ 来源:·WWW 未名空间站 海外: mitbbs.com 中国: mitbbs.cn·[FROM: 72.77.]
